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Poster: Mandojammer Date: May 14, 2010 3:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

"Plants defend themselves against grazing with secondary compounds, they are evolutionarily trying to "stop" all grazing..."

Not the ones in my garden.

They defend themselves by being fortunate enough to be growing in my square foot beds. Virginia is a "castle doctrine" state. Cross my moat and come at my zucchini and you will likely be "processed" with a Marlin .444 (the Barrett is just too damn big) and end up in my black compost.

And just what do I feel you may ask?

A pretty healthy recoil.

But I don't shoot fish.

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 3:58pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Actually, if you care, it is precisely because we have "domesticated" them that those secondary compds no longer are an issue...and I applaud you for taking that farming methodology to the lengths that you and the family have! Cont'ing a fine tradition...

All I have tried to focus on through all of this is the fallacy of claiming "plants are different enough from animals that I am holier than whomever if I only eat plants because they don't feel pain, try to avoid being eaten, blah, blah, blah".

BejScene misses the pt entirely: of course plants ARE different, BUT not in the key respects germane to the ethical issue at hand...they do feel something akin to "pain", they have responded evolutionarily by attempting to minimize this activity (grazing), and thus, the only logical conclusion is they are do different in these key respects to the chickens we take eggs from...

But, though I always benefit by babbling on about such esoteric matters (since I actually do get paid to think, write, talk and refine my perspective on all things biological), I am confident the rest of you would be better served if I just STFU every now and again.

So, I will.

Hope the spring is treating you and all of your subdued and productive inmates well (the plants, which I agree, may in fact be the happier for the tender care they rec' from you and yours!)...good luck with the harvest, all season(s) long, Mando!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: May 14, 2010 4:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

So not to kick the can down the road anymore.....(boot)

What about he plants that need a good cutback that double their output? We cut a bunch of arugula and buttercrunch lettuce early this week and the site where we cut has sent out two new shoots each.

I'm sorta going with the "live to serve" mantra.

Here's an update - http://www.flickr.com/photos/41761556@N08/4595836415/

Compare the amount of growth from a month ago - the second pic in the series is a link back to the SFG beds in early April.

We have been picking a pint of strawberries every day for a week now. Blueberries should be coming in in a month and a half and my Apache thornless blackberry bush has about 200 fruit on it right now, and is still full of blooms. The black currant is blooming and my white currant bush has enough fruit on it to make jam.

Can't wait for my habaneros to bear fruit - I believe you when you talk about their defense mechanism. Those most definitely DO NOT go quietly into the dark night.

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 4:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Oh yes, absolutely true...but, it only supports the "individual's drive to survive/reproduce" perspective, NOT the notion that they are doing it to be "good" (though they are from your perspective).

To use our chicken example again, every time you take an egg, the hen lays another...in nature this is "replacement due to loss from a predator" but no one would look at this as an example of the chicken "likes to make eggs for the fox" that keeps taking them...

Right?

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: May 14, 2010 4:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

"Right?"

Again.

As usual.

I suppose you could make the argument that left unharvested, the arugula and buttercrunch would bolt and flower and go to seed sooner than if periodically "thinned".

But therein lies the slippery slope referenced earlier. By cutting them back (purely for my benefit a la my salad plate) I force them to respond in such a manner so as to produce more - whether it be out of a defensive posturing or self preservation response.

My issue with harvesting - whether it's a plant or and animal - is to only harvest what I am going to use. And I make a very concerted effort to only plant as much as I plan on using. I think that makes me a responsible steward of the Square Foot approach.

With respect to animals - I used to hunt all the time growing up and with very few exceptions, I ate everything I took. Same approach to fishing - if I don't catch and release I eat it. And I do feel very guilty on that rare occasion when I have a bad hook set and the fish swallows the lure. I'll typically cut the line and let the hook dissolve - hoping that the gut hook set doesn't end up killing the fish.

Very interesting discussion this evening.......

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 14, 2010 5:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

Oh yeah, right there with you on that (harvesting ethic/conservation in general/etc)...my only concern was with the original implication of "ethical superiority" of vegans provided by long&strange...and BejScene was not taking the "hard line", so it was a nice little back and forth (I just get cranky easily, so sometimes slip up rather than remaining patient as I should; and we did cross a few "faith/belief/etc" boundaries that in general, are a signal that you are not going to get much further in presenting your ["mine"] position...I just never know when to let go, as you've noticed!).

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Poster: beijingscene Date: May 14, 2010 10:13pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

All I have tried to focus on through all of this is the fallacy of claiming "plants are different enough from animals that I am holier than whomever if I only eat plants because they don't feel pain, try to avoid being eaten, blah, blah, blah".

dear WT and mandojammer:

sorry, i was out in the garden (seriously). WT: i know about your impressive credentials. i don't lack for them myself. but your above is reductio ad absurdum. please feel free to let this post go straight to compost, but i never claimed "holier than whomever." i follow a millennia-old tradition that works for me and hundreds of millions of other human beings that i think you are blithely dismissing by ascribing characteristics to it that it does not claim or possess. i too am a skeptic, of overcertainty of anything, academic degrees notwithstanding. like you, i do this for a living. what i also do is grow all my own food.

mandojammer, kudos on the SFG. here is a video of our acre under cultivation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AezmqPcfQ0&;feature=player_embedded

thank you for chiming in, i was getting tired of playing the [jack] straw man. i am confident that you followed my logic. i was claiming none of the things WT ascribed to me. i live off of what i grow and teach inner-city kids and others how to do the same. i try not to kill any animals, per a millennia-old teaching i was lucky enough to be initiated into and follow. if WT feels the need to deride that as superstition, so be it, it is nothing i have not heard before.

WT, a humble request for a link to your lectures on ethics, humankind and consumption. i will gladly reciprocate with links to my writing, which you could sleuth out easily enough anyway. i know who i am talking to but i don't think you are similarly informed. i know you are most likely to encounter a knee-jerk ideologue ala longnstrange on this forum, but i am the exception to the rule and wish you had treated my views with a little less crankiness and a little more respect, i believe they are worthy of it.

We are stardust, we are golden, We are billion year old carbon
And we got to get ourselves back to the garden

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Poster: William Tell Date: May 15, 2010 7:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

With all due respect then BejScene, I may have gotten it wrong...your are right that my statements above were the "original" ones that deal with the stereotypical vegans, and the implication of long&srg's orig post.

However, if you re-read your posts, for most every expression of my perspective, your item by item reply was a listing of "huh?" or "I believe this" and so on, and so forth.

Very polite, but when one says, "science supports the sky is blue, and therefore" the response of "well, I happen to believe the sky is..." (over-stated, but this was the tone and implication, IMHO of your replies...no?) it eventually causes a bit of crankiness to creep in, eh?

So, if you're now saying you have no problem with plants sharing the same critical components with animals (this was a vital example of the argument gone south: when I said plants and animals are similar, in the KEY respects under discussion, you diverted the discussion with a non-sense "but all agree they are diff!" Of course they are, but they are similar in the KEY respects [pain, etc.]), then you're right...

We have no disagreement. And if you don't hold the stereo-typical holier than thou attitude, great, but it does come thru in some of those exchanges with all the great things you do...just as my snobbish, intellectualist overly analytical pain in the ass won't STFU know it all scientist personality comes thru in mine, I am sure.

So, with all of that, excuse my frustration at having been thwarted at every turn by your responses, and reacting poorly, but patience on web writing is NOT my virture...nor is beating my head against the wall. Last, I do appreciate your kind offer of cont'ing it, but concluded after our first exchange or two it won't do either of us any good...I know you are NOT one of the "creationist" ilk, but it's similar in that those adhering to faith/belief systems simply cannot be impacted by arguments based on the substantive material world in which spiritualism is denied. So, why would we bother, right? We'd both end up worse for wear!

I'll close by saying once more, sorry if I miss interpreted your posts, but I don't think you really wanted the "scientific perspective" (which is fine for you), having long ago rejected that as unsatisfying, which I can understand as well.

If you really do want to know more, research "plant secondary compounds"; "species-ist perspectives in animal welfare"; and "repudiation of Aristolte's tree of life". Seriously, these will help in showing the false distinction among plants and animals, again with the key issues at hand...

Truce?

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: May 15, 2010 7:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: TDIH (1972) - 'It was one of our finest 'music for the people' moments...

beijscene -

"i live off of what i grow and teach inner-city kids and others how to do the same."

I'm sure you are familiar with Will Allen's work with Growing Power in Milwaukee. Simply amazing work from a great human being. "Grow. Bloom. Thrive."

I would love to have a lot that size to work with. Even better, it would be nice if Old Dominion University would put together a program like this.

Although Mrs. Mando keeps me busy enough with our effort. I don't know if you caught it in her writeup on her flickr series, but we have harvested and eaten from our SFG beds every month since April-May 09. We had two bumpers of peppers last year and were it not for the November Nor'easter would have had Anaheim and jalapeno peppers well into November.

This post was modified by Mandojammer on 2010-05-15 14:19:12

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